Short version: I've just never managed to feel enjoyment while playing any of the ones I've tried. I dont think theyre bad, I just think they dont really click for the way I like to run games. And it has almost nothing to do with combat, which takes up very little table time in my preferred games (combat tends to go no longer than 3 rounds, usually less than 3 minutes each for a table of 6 -- by then, PCs are either victorious, making an expeditious retreat, or dead).

Long version: I just can't find a good rhythm with Monster of the Week, Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Apocalypse World (the three games in this style I've tried). Most of it comes down to how much more mental work it is for me to watch out for move triggers (and memorize the set of moves for each playbook, plus the GM moves. While I already do most of the things the GM moves are meant to encourage in my games of choice, I'm not really thinking of them as I do them -- they feel very fluid, like natural reactions to my players. Hinting at future danger, presenting a hard choice, etc. PbtA games have made it feel much less natural, far more mechanical, and it pulls me out of the natural conversation of a game.

I also dont really like the way it wants me to use dice. Normally, I take the approach that if a PC has the tools, the time and the skills, their desired action automatically succeeds unless it's truly impossible. To put that in PbtA terms, sometimes I want to make a move so soft it's not even there. But PbtA games tend to not accept this, so you have players rolling more often and coming up with mixed success more often than not, which can burn me out and lead the PCs into a death spiral of mixed success, especially when I've gotten worn down and can't come up with anything reasonable to tack on. It's frustrating and anti-fun for me.

And then I think the core malfunction that underscores all of this for me is that PbtA is not really there to emulate a living world, but instead focuses on genre emulation. There's nothing wrong with that, except I've yet to find one that tries to be a genre I like in the way I understand that genre. It seems like my choices are "angsty, sexy, teen drama," "angsty, sexy, adult drama," or "cozy," with not much for me to hang my creative hat on. I didn't watch Buffy, Angel or X-Files growing up, so MotW hit a little soft. I dont care for Apocalypse World's picture of post apocalypse storytelling, so that also didnt really fit for me. And tbh, I can't figure out what TSL is trying to be -- it doesn't really mirror my own queer experience (maybe because I'm not a lesbian?), and doesn't seem to point to any other stereotyped fiction. So it all just feels empty.

Hopefully that explains it, but I love talking about RPGs (even ones I didn't enjoy), so if its confusing I can try to clarify.

Looks cool! Piques my interest in the same way as Nox Archaist -- getting to experience gaming from a time before me, but with some of the rough edges sanded down.

Same here. I was kind of interested in Daggerheart as something to propose as an alternative for my friends who dig the tradgame vibe (I honestly assumed it was going to be very 5e like but with some tweaks and serial numbers filed off), but hearing it's PbtA-like has dashed all my interest.

The SN30 is about as close as you can get to that, I think. I have two, and use them for everything. They're basically SNES controllers with analog sticks. No paddles or other macro buttons. Just ABXY, dpad, start, select, shoulders, triggers and sticks.

They do also make the Micro, but that might be too tiny even for a child. Dpad and face buttons only.

Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but I actually like D&D and much prefer it to every other family of games I've tried (WoD, GURPS, PbtA, etc). What i dont like is the current iteration of D&D, which is why my recommendations are:

Swords & Wizardry Complete: it's OD&D with some of the rough edges sanded off and all the optional material added. Tons of classes, lots of tools for procedural world building, and very easily hackable. It's simpler to teach to a new player, and its more flexible than 5e for experienced players. The tick-tock of the dungeon turn structure makes it easier to keep pace as a GM, and when in doubt, rolling x-in-6 always holds up. If you want a classic dungeon crawler, this is it.

Whitehack: Still D&D but more narrative. Skills are replaced with groups that can give advantages to tasks directly influenced by membership in that group. Magic is super flexible and everyone has access to some form of it, but the "magic user" class gets to just make up their own spells and pay some HP depending on effect size. Great rules for base building, good GM advice for making adventures that aren't dungeon or wilderness crawls (but are structured like those things). The core mechanic minimizes table math so even your players who struggle with addition can play fast. Less deadly than actual old D&D but keeping the same vibe. It's my favorite for those who prefer narrative to mechanics. In a lot of ways, it's D&D rewritten for the way a lot of people actuslly play 5e.

Asking them to bring precons sounds good. UT at least two of the people in that group don't even own any precons. For them, the deckbuilding is the fun part, so they'd just as well not play than run someone else's deck.

I think trying to proxy something more powerful is the last chance here, and if I still don't "get" commander after that, I'll probably just throw the towel in and do something else when they break out the commander decks.

Another friend (not in this pod) pointed out that it's for cards you love, a commander youre dying to build around, etc, so if you have to ask where the fun is, it's not the format for you, and I guess I get that.

I've been thinking about your comment and I started to wonder if maybe the politics is what's actually keeping me from enjoying the format. I've tried some of that but I get swung at anyway, often because I'm the least dangerous/easiest to attack at any given moment (no blockers, no reach, etc). Even as much as I point to the Muldrotha and say "hey I've played that deck and none of you have targeted that player, it could get wild" it never seems to work. If I'm bad at the political game, maybe the rest of the game just kind of crumbles around me? I hear these stories of people "not looking like a threat" but when i try to do the same I think it looks more like I'm a soft target.

I will definitely proxy those and test out this version of the deck next time we play. And if it feels better, I'll get the real ones.

Hm...we may be onto something, then...

We tried that early on, where I'd get stuck, show my hand and they'd go "oh..." I think part of it is that my luck might just be really bad, and the first precon I picked up on my own is apparently really quite terrible, so that didn't help either. On board wipes, it's not that I have much of an issue with them, it's just that so far they seem to only come right before I'm able to do something, and it's incredibly frustrating to have never had an opportunity to actually affect the game. Although by the sound of it, maybe that's actually normal? The very mean part of me wants to put together 99 cards worth of board wipes, targeted removal, land destruction, stun counters, you name it and take an "If I can't play, nobody can" approach. But that'd be very very un-fun for everyone else, so I shan't.

Just for completeness' sake and to hopefully give context to what the rest of the group is playing, I tried to remember what card caused the Pantlaza situation, and it appears to have been Expropriate. Stuff on that order is what I'd consider normal for the power level here. Lots of things that can destroy one's chance of playing in a single turn.

I'll take a look, but I do wonder if maybe Prosper just isn't resonating with me and I should just look elsewhere.

There's some incredulity that there's nothing I can do or have no answers in hand, and then encouragement to stay in because there somehow might be a comeback when I've missed 4 land drops and none of my mana rocks have come out. Or similar. I think there's a certain amount of feelsbad that commander is not catching with me, or how often in collateral damage in such a way that I don't actuality get to play even though I'm technically in the game. Probably a little over half the games so far have resulted in that.

Just this weekend I played the Pantlaza deck and it got removed early, I played it again and started building up a board, then the next turn it and the rest of my creatures got sent back to my hand, then I had to discard half of them for hand limit, and one I finally got it back out again, someone could either take it or get an extra turn. That deck basically ceases to function without its commander, so I waited another hour and a half being completely unable to affect the game state at all. In hindsight, I should've scooped to deny that player the resources. After 3 consecutive turns, they didn't even win!

But yeah it's not about winning, it's about sitting there bored out of my skull not being able to affect the game. At this moment I would rather play any other format because commander has been unbelievably boring in every one of the dozen plus games I've tried.

It's just an unmodified precon.

https://moxfield.com/decks/3JwMHo6ANUeV4t-0eNLA5A

Any tips on that then? I really don't want to spend more than $15-20 tops (although I realize this is impossible hecause of shipping, so I guess as little as possible will have to do) and it has to function without the commander (which seems to defeat the purpose of the format but whatever) because no matter who I've played, it just gets removed to the point where the tax makes it unplayable (Kess, Muldrotha, Pantlaza, Prosper, Hakbal...several more).

Also maybe you can answer, what happens when you are technically not dead (>0 life) but can't take any useful actions? Friends seem upset when I say I'm ready to scoop, but I'm also not interested in sitting there for another hour not being able to play. I guess they want my life total to stay for damage triggers maybe? Or they think someone can come back from an empty hand and a recent board wipe?

Yeah I probably should've asked for advice, but I knew while assembling the deck that all my picks were garbage. Plus I was intimidated by being the only one there who didn't already know someone else, so the anxiety took over and I didn't do a whole lot of talking. The first opponent might have helped me out a little, he seemed pretty nice. The last two were a little scary tbh haha.

And yeah this group had 24 I think. Funny thing is that this is the small shop nearby me. It just happens to have high ceilings so every sound on the floor is amplified.

Ah that sounds nice. Makes me wish anyone played Jumpstart. Cracking a couple of those in a similar way to your Pauper decks would've probably kept my energy up after a terrible round!

Yeah, I tried to not show that I was wearing down because I know that can dampen the mood. I did reflexively apologize to my first opponent because I assume one sided matches are boring, especially if someone is high skill, but to his credit he said not to worry about it and thanked me for the pack, so maybe I was overthinking it.

If I go again I'll bring noise dampening earplugs and hopefully weather the environment better.

This was great, very comprehensive. Thank you!

Yeah nobody said or did anything egregious. I could just see my second opponent getting bored and kind of annoyed even of she kept it to herself. At least I think she was, I'm admittedly not great at reading faces. I think most people had friends there, so I felt like every moment they were spending on our games was going to be time they couldn't be getting in a real game between rounds. Lots of friendly side games seemed to be happening between rounds. If that's not actually an issue, then I won't worry about it if I go again.

And yeah, the format change didn't really change my odds of winning, but it threw me off and since I don't really have fundamentals yet, it kind of felt like the floor falling out under me. Not a big deal though, just harder to learn from.

My solution is to run with as few as 2+me (the DM), and use a play structure that doesn't require the same players to be present at every session. We always end rhe session in a safe location (town, safehouse, etc). If someone can't make it, they're just in suspended animation along with their gear and hirelings/retainers until they're back.

Just not sweating the fact that it's a game has gotten me a very consistent game every two weeks like clockwork.