Cowbee

The cracks were already there, if we are to think dialectically, just growing.

Thanks!

And from a western perspective, a huge amount of why Japan gets a pass even though we are aware of the abysmal working conditions is because anime is so popular here. It has a cultural strangehold among younger generations. The ROK has similar cultural exports. Media from the PRC is gradually becoming more popular, but it takes time for that to actually develop to a higher stage, development isn't something smooth as we both know, it works in leaps once the new overpowers the old.

Don't be too sure, Iran is extremely important for both.

They were categorized as front-line workers and farmers' representatives, not as though the remainder were capitalists. Administration is not a class in and of itself, the state is the extension of the ruling class in society, its political force. In China, they have direct elections for local representatives, which elect further "rungs," laddering to the top. The top then has mass polling and opinion gathering. This combination of top-down and bottom-up democracy ensures effective results. For more on this, see Professor Roland Boer's Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance.

Awesome, thanks for letting me know! I knew it was on the decline, but solid evidence on material movements like declaring it illegal are great to see. I myself once worked a similar schedule for a while, here in the States.

Poland trading with other socialist countries during its socialist period makes sense, no? Poland depended quite heavily on the USSR and was integrated into socialist trade, which worked remarkably well for developing Poland. As you point out, Poland is getting actually colonized by the west right now. Poland's nationalists have historically been strong, and now they have essentially purged all opposition.

EU seems pretty split now itself, with the Spain/Germany spat. I'm not getting my hopes up for that to manifest anything at the present moment though.

I don't really want to think about that. Tens of millions of people would likely die in the process and World War III may get kicked off.

Yep! This coupled with Europe's pivot to Russian LNG is going to be pretty huge for deteriorating US/EU relations.

It's the nuclear option, right now Iran wants to stay on Russia and China's good sides.

And I responded to that with the list of arguments that the duck might call itself whatever it wants but it’s still the same capitalistic duck (gig economy, 996, almost no proletariat in NPC - like 10% now? 15%?).

This is bullshit based on vibes. I'll state it again: The PRC is socialist because public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state. The PRC is not a gig economy, 996 is a problem but doesn't mean it isn't socialist, and the NPC is controlled by the proletariat.

No socialist country can be ruled by beurocracy or bourgeoisie.

Yep, the PRC is governed by the proletariat.

You ignored that and instead wrote this shit:
China is already socialist, it isn’t going to become socialist because it already is. China has worker protections, and the lives of the working classes have been improving year over year.

Repeating again how I categorized socialism: The PRC is socialist because public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state. When I said China has worker protections, that was a response to your cope about "996" and other nonsense, not a way to say China is socialist.

As if this is requirement to being a socialist country. If it is, then half of EU fits, including Poland.

It isn't a requirement to be socialist, and I never said it was. It took several comments for you to understand that my source was an economist's review of a work of fiction and not the work of fiction itself, and now you keep pretending I'm defining socialism by saying it has safety nets despite my insistence on the mode of production. Why are you so consistent with butchering my points? Respond to the actual points I make.

The USSR reconstructed Poland after the war, and often forgave Polish debts. From @AnarchoBolshevik@lemmygrad.ml's research:

Quoting Dorothy W. Douglas’s Transitional Economic Systems: The Polish–Czech Example (a work by an economic anthropologist), page 66:

In foreign trade the pre-war level had now been surpassed,² and on a per capita basis it was two-thirds above pre-war. A trade agreement concluded with the Soviet Union early in 1948 had ensured the importation of investment goods to the value of £112,000,000. In general, trade with the Soviet Union had risen from 0.4 per cent in 1938 to 21.5 per cent in 1948; and trade with her and the other countries of planned economy now accounted for over a third (37.8 per cent) of [the Polish People’s Republic’s] total foreign trade.

Page 130:

Much the largest piece of industrial construction listed for the Six-Year Plan was the great steel combine of Nowa Huta (‘New Foundry’), near Cracow. Deliberately planted in the most poverty-stricken and probably the most traditional-minded province in Poland, a region of dwarf farms, the new ‘socialist city’ when completed was to house 100,000 persons.³
Another characteristic note was that the entire equipment of the foundry and its related works had been furnished out of the proceeds of the 1948 long-time investment loan granted Poland by the Soviet Union, and that all the major parts were actual imports from the Soviet Union, complete with all their technical documentation.

Pages 310–311:

The Polish–Soviet Trade and Investment Agreement of January 1948 referred to above by the Economic Commission for Europe, was stressed in after years by the Poles as a landmark in their industrial history. Besides providing for the exchange of goods, it extended to [the Polish People’s Republic] credits for great amounts of industrial equipment to be sent during 1948–56. Payment was to be over a period of ten years, chiefly in goods, at 3 per cent interest.
This credit, the Poles later stressed, was the largest that Poland had ever received. The investment credit amounted to some £112,000,000, and enabled [the Polish People’s Republic] to start carrying out her Six-Year Plan in more than thirty industrial branches. The investment goods were destined for plants of both heavy and light industry.
In heavy industry the Poles made much of the new steel plant of Nowa Huta that, when completed, was to double the country’s existing steel capacity: they pointed out that it was wholly Soviet financed and was built mainly on Soviet deliveries.
The next most important items were several large chemical factories. Pre-war Poland had had no chemical industry. In light industry the Poles made a dramatic showing of the Soviet Union's contribution in 1951 by having a series of plants in different parts of the country start production within a few days of each other close to 7 November.
These included a factory producing the first passenger motor-car in Poland, a new lorry factory, a new textile factory, and a large transporter for the mechanical loading of ships. Ail of these, the press emphasized at the time, had been not only Soviet financed, but had been erected on the basis of Soviet plans and machines and with the aid of Soviet specialists.
In 1950 [the Polish People’s Republic] received further increase of credit from the Soviet Union. By the close of 1951 not all of this had as yet been used. The new agreement to run from 1953–8 provided that nearly 40 per cent of all Soviet exports to [the PPR] would be capital goods.
The Council for Mutual Economic Assistance
For the smaller planned economies plainly a double process had been at work. From the Soviet Union came major investment credits, technical equipment and industrial raw materials, as well as, especially in times of stress, grains and feeding stuffs.

Page 359:

Assistance from Soviet specialists was used. And technical delegations of all sorts from the two countries visited the Soviet Union. The Polish Government, stated President Bierut at the end of 1950, in discussing innovations under the Six-Year Plan, had asked for and received the services for several months of groups of Soviet specialists.
‘The Soviet specialists made an analysis of our Plan in those branches which are of foremost importance to us: coal, metallurgy, machinery, chemicals, and power; they gave exceptionally valuable advice to our engineers and industrial managers; they corrected individual mistakes and made important suggestions. […]’
He added, significantly enough, a note on personal contacts: ‘In the course of exchange of professional views and experience. […] Polish engineers and industrial managers […] were thus able to become acquainted with the talents, science, and style of work of a new intelligentsia. […]’¹
Several different notes were struck in regard to the interdependent progress of the planned economies. Emphasis was laid, as above, upon Soviet aid.

[Click here for further examples of communist reconstruction.]

Pages 40 & 46:

The writer in 1948 saw the salvaged farm and industrial equipment in use once more, restored with great patience and ingenuity, the buildings going up with enormous use of hand labour, new heavy machinery of Polish manufacture beginning to fill the half‐reconstructed factories, and industrial products emerging at the other end. […] The dominant political patter of the 1945–7 period was undoubtedly formed by the Communists quite as much as the Socialists.

Pages 50–51:

In order to accelerate agricultural rehabilitation of the country and to satisfy the Polish peasants’ age‐old hunger for land, the Polish Committee of National Liberation will immediately proceed to carry into effect, in the liberated territories, agrarian reforms on a large scale.

Page 57:

In addition, general co-operates of a new type were looked to, to furnish social amenities in the country-side and to protect their members against speculation and fraud. Mentioned in only the most general terms in the Reconstruction Plan, this type of organization subsequently had a rapid and important growth.
In handicraft and small industry production, the co‐operative sector had the advantage of a post‐war start: ownerless small enterprises were sometimes turned over to co‐operative groups, among them often the remnants of the surviving Jewish population.

Quoting Sultan Barakat’s Russia's Approach to Post-Conflict Reconstruction: The History, Context, and its effect on Ukraine, page 40:

And, “[immediately] after the end of the war, the USSR transferred 15% of the German reparation payments to Poland. The amount was equal to the U.S. assistance to France under the Marshall Plan” (Zatsarin, 2016).

The Soviets also forgave Polish debts. Quoting Adam Zwass’s The Council for Mutual Economic Assistance: The Thorny Path from Political to Economic Integration, page 22:

Khrushchev […] stopped deliveries at prices which were not always able to cover the costs of transport (between 1945 and 1954 Poland delivered 50 million tons of coal at a price of 1.28 U.S. dollars per ton, which was only one-tenth of the price [that] it could have had on the world market). Khrushchev was willing to write off a portion of the credits granted from the books as repayment for the damage caused, including 3.2 billion złotys and 22.3 million U.S. dollars of Poland’s debt.

Neither theory nor science should be gatekept, but that doesn't mean studying both aren't still necessary.

Oh absolutely, that's probably why they aren't mining the strait but just blasting those that try.

Modern poland has private ownership as its principle aspect, and capitalists in control of the state. Did you read my prior comment at all? Socialism is a mode of production where public ownership is principle and the working classes in charge of the state, as I already said. You then pivoted to questions of quality of life, which is improving in China. Poland dropped in quality of life for most people after the dissolution of socialism in the immediate, and in the long run the poor in Poland are worse off than they were in socialism.

Why do you bother replying if you aren't going to engage with the points I make?

Massive China and Russia win here.

Reading theory helps teach us how to best make that a reality.

Both will be less effective than someone that balances both. It isn't either-or, but both/and.

No, you can't counterpoint anything that I wrote. China is already socialist, it isn't going to become socialist because it already is. China has worker protections, and the lives of the working classes have been improving year over year. This is extreme cope on your part, and your refusal to engage with my points because they cleanly and clearly refute yours is just dishonesty.

Stupid but effective test I have leftover from my gaming days. Write Tiananmen Square (Massacre) before I interact with you any further.

Why? The 1989 Beijing riots didn't take place on the square itself, which was evacuated bloodlessly.

In 2011, three secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing from the time of the events were leaked and published by WikiLeaks, all of which stated that there was no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square itself.[185] Instead, they said Chinese soldiers opened fire on protesters in Beijing outside the square, around Muxidi station, as they fought their way from the west towards the centre.[185] A Chilean diplomat who had been positioned next to a Red Cross station inside the square told his US counterparts that he did not observe any mass firing of weapons into the crowds in the square itself, although sporadic gunfire was heard. He said that most of the troops who entered the square were armed only with anti-riot gear.[185][207]

Per wikipedia. There were hundreds of killings around Beijing, none of which happened on the square itself.

Can you actually engage with my points, rather than dodge them?

Cowbee [he/they]

Iran to Allow Only Chinese & Russian Vessels Through Strait of Hormuz, Citing Beijing & Moscow's 'Support' in Ongoing Conflict

Why do you think so many people on the Marxist left defend Stalinism?

Iran to Allow Only Chinese & Russian Vessels Through Strait of Hormuz, Citing Beijing & Moscow's 'Support' in Ongoing Conflict

Why do you think so many people on the Marxist left defend Stalinism?

Why do you think so many people on the Marxist left defend Stalinism?

Why do you think so many people on the Marxist left defend Stalinism?

Iran to Allow Only Chinese & Russian Vessels Through Strait of Hormuz, Citing Beijing & Moscow's 'Support' in Ongoing Conflict

Iran to Allow Only Chinese & Russian Vessels Through Strait of Hormuz, Citing Beijing & Moscow's 'Support' in Ongoing Conflict

Iran to Allow Only Chinese & Russian Vessels Through Strait of Hormuz, Citing Beijing & Moscow's 'Support' in Ongoing Conflict

Iran to Allow Only Chinese & Russian Vessels Through Strait of Hormuz, Citing Beijing & Moscow's 'Support' in Ongoing Conflict

Iran to Allow Only Chinese & Russian Vessels Through Strait of Hormuz, Citing Beijing & Moscow's 'Support' in Ongoing Conflict

Why do you think so many people on the Marxist left defend Stalinism?

Why do you think so many people on the Marxist left defend Stalinism?

I didn't join the revolution to read

Iran to Allow Only Chinese & Russian Vessels Through Strait of Hormuz, Citing Beijing & Moscow's 'Support' in Ongoing Conflict

Why do you think so many people on the Marxist left defend Stalinism?

Iran to Allow Only Chinese & Russian Vessels Through Strait of Hormuz, Citing Beijing & Moscow's 'Support' in Ongoing Conflict

I didn't join the revolution to read

I didn't join the revolution to read

Why do you think so many people on the Marxist left defend Stalinism?

What games have the best Leftist or Leftist adjacent narratives and writing?

Which Character Build Suits Each Game Best?

What are your favorite albums from the 2020s?

Which Fallout Game do you go Back to Most?

What's your Favorite Mod Guide/List?

What Large-scale Mod Project are you Looking Forward to?

Fallout London - Official Release Announcement