Zionismus- und Nazianschuldigungen | Zionism and nazism accusations

English version below.

Hallo zusammen,

in den letzten Tagen gab es einige Anschuldigungen sowohl gegen die Moderatoren von [email protected] als auch gegen unser Adminteam Nazis oder Zionisten zu sein, vorrangig aufgrund des Umgangs mit Kritik an Israel.

Wir weisen diese Anschuldigungen hiermit ausdrücklich zurück und werden derartige Anschuldigungen nicht tolerieren. Insbesondere sind Personen die Andere derart beschuldigen, ohne dass es dafür konkrete objektive Anlässe gibt, auf feddit.org nicht willkommen. Dies ist bereits von unserer Regel zu respektvollem Umgang gedeckt, welcher hier in keinster Weise erbracht wird.

Zunächst einmal möchten wir daran erinnern, dass die Nutzung von feddit.org mit den Rechten und Gesetzen der DACH-Region vereinbar sein muss. Dies ist explizit in unseren Instanzregeln erwähnt, und beinhaltet Deutschland (D), Österreich (A), und Schweiz (CH). Die Infrastruktur von feddit.org wird von der Fediverse Foundation, einem gemeinnützigen Verein in Österreich betreut. Unser Adminteam, welches sich um die Instanzweite Moderation, Organisation, sowie Mitbetreuung der Infrastruktur von feddit.org kümmert ist in Deutschland ansässig. Da wir allgemein den deutschsprachigen Raum als primäre Zielgruppe haben versuchen wir auch entsprechend die Gesetze der Schweiz zu berücksichtigen.

Auch wenn wir nicht aktiv nach Gesetzesverstößen suchen müssen, ist es zumindest in einigen Fällen nötig nach Kenntnisnahme einzugreifen. Dies beinhaltet z.B. wenn Moderatoren oder Admins Meldungen zu Posts oder Kommentaren erhalten, aber auch wenn derartige Inhalte zufällig entdeckt werden, wenn man auf Lemmy unterwegs ist.

https://www.wko.at/internetrecht/providerhaftung

Beim „Hosting“ haftet der Diensteanbieter beschränkt, sofern der Anbieter
keine tatsächliche Kenntnis von konkreten rechtswidrigen Tätigkeiten oder Inhalten hat und sich in Bezug auf Schadenersatzansprüche auch keiner Tatsachen oder Umstände bewusst ist, aus denen die rechtswidrige Tätigkeit oder Inhalte offensichtlich hervorgehen, und
sobald er diese Kenntnis oder dieses Bewusstsein erlangt, zügig tätig wird, um den Zugang zu den rechtswidrigen Inhalten zu sperren oder diese zu entfernen.

Relevante Straftatbestände sind unter anderem Folgende:

Rechtliche Instrumente gegen die Verbreitung von antisemitischen oder terroristische Handlungen gutheißenden Äußerungen, des Deutschen Bundestages (Deutschland)

§ 130 Volksverhetzung (Deutschland)

Einige weiterführende Links:

Wir stehen in diesem Fall vollständig hinter den Moderatoren von [email protected], bei rechtlichen Unsicherheiten lieber zu viel als zu wenig zu entfernen.

Auslöser für die aktuelle Debatte ist u.a. dieser Post, welcher der Entfernung eines Kommentars folgte, für einen Vergleich des Nationalsozialismus mit der aktuellen Situation in Israel, was unserem Verständnis nach als Verharmlosung des Nationalsozialismus betrachtet werden kann. Derartige Aussagen können u.a. zu Haftstrafen führen. In dem Post wurde u.a. behauptet, dass die Entfernung zionistische Hintergründe hätte, eine Anschuldigung die grundsätzlich von entsprechenden Nachweisen unterstützt sein sollte, und vor welcher ausgeschlossen werden sollte, dass es alternative Erklärungen gibt.

Wir werden nicht jeden Kommentar der Ansatzweise in die Richtung geht entfernen, jedoch behalten wir uns vor Personen die unsere Instanz, Admins, Moderatoren, oder andere Nutzer ohne stichhaltige Argumente als Nazis oder Zionisten beschuldigen, insbesondere wenn dies mehr als ein vereinzelter Kommentar ist, permanent von feddit.org auszuzschließen.

Hierzu gehören auch Inhalte wie dieser Post von @[email protected], welcher kurz davor bereits aufgrund von vielfachen Aufrufen zu Gewalt und Terror von unserer Instanz gebannt wurde. Diese Person scheint zudem auch die Instanz quokk.au zu administrieren, oder zumindest gute Beziehungen zum Admin zu haben, da wir in nahem zeitlichen Zusammenhang eine Zensur auf Fediseer von quokk.au erhalten haben, in welcher wir als Zionisten und Nazis beschuldigt werden, und @[email protected] in den Raum gestellt hat quokk.au von uns zu deföderieren (Archiv).

Falls diese Zensur von quokk.au nicht zeitnah zurückgenommen werden sollte werden wir quokk.au von unserer Seite für diese anhaltslosen und unwahren Anschuldigungen deföderieren. quokk.au ist eine relativ kleine Instanz mit nur wenigen lokalen Nutzern, welche versucht hat eine alternative Newscommunity aufzubauen, die nicht auf einer der "großen" Instanzen liegt. Leider scheint auch diese Community eine schlechte Alternative zu sein, wenn dies der reguläre Umgang des dortigen Admins ist.

Hello all,

in the last few days there have been some accusations against the moderators of [email protected] as well as against our admin team of being Nazis or Zionists, mainly because of the way of dealing with criticism of Israel.

We explicitly reject these accusations and will not tolerate such accusations. In particular, people who accuse others in this way without any concrete objective reason are not welcome on feddit.org. This is already covered by our rule of respectful interaction.

First of all, we would like to remind you, that the use of feddit.org must be compliant with the rights and regulations of the DACH region. This is explicitly mentioned in our instance rules, and includes Germany (D), Austria (A) and Switzerland (CH). The infrastructure of feddit.org is maintaind by the Fediverse Foundation, a non-profit association in Austria. Our Admin team, which takes care of the instance wide moderation, organization and supporting infrastructure operations, is based in Germany. Since we primarily target the German speaking coutries, we also try to comply with laws and regulations of Switzerland.

Even if we do not have to actively search for violations of the law, it is necessary to intervene after becoming aware of them. This includes, for example when moderators or admins receive messages about posts or comments, but also when such content is discovered by chance when browsing Lemmy.

https://www.wko.at/internetrecht/providerhaftung

In the case of “hosting”, the service provider has limited liability if the provider
has no actual knowledge of specific unlawful activities or content and is not aware of any facts or circumstances with regard to claims for damages from which the unlawful activity or content is obvious, and
as soon as it obtains this knowledge or awareness, takes swift action to block access to the illegal content or to remove it.

Relevant criminal offenses include the following:

Legal instruments against the dissemination of anti-Semitic statements or statements condoning terrorist acts of the German Parliament (German)

Section 130 Incitement of masses

Some further links, mostly in German:

In this instance, we fully support the moderators of [email protected] to potentially remove too much rather than too little in case of legal uncertainties.

One of the triggers for the current debate is this post, which followed the removal of a comment comparing National Socialism with the current situation in Israel, which can be considered a trivialization of National Socialism. Such statements can, among other things, lead to imprisonment. Among other things, the post claimed that the removal had a Zionist motive, an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.

We will not be removing every comment that goes even remotely in this direction, but we reserve the right to permanently ban users from feddit.org who make unfounded accusations, such as labeling our instance, admins, moderators, or other users as Nazis or Zionists, without substantial supporting arguments. This is especially the case when this is recurring behavior and not an isolated incident.

This includes content such as this post by @[email protected], who was banned from our instance shortly before that post due to multiple incitements of violence and terrorism. This person also seems to be the admin of the instance quokk.au, or at least to have good relations to the admin, since we received a censure on Fediseer from quokk.au around the same time, in which we are being accused of being Zionists and Nazis, and @[email protected] has suggested to defederate quokk.au from us (archive).

If this censure by quokk.au is not withdrawn in a timely manner, we will defederate quokk.au from our side for these unsubstantiated and untrue accusations. quokk.au is a relatively small instance with only a few local users, which tried to build an alternative news community that is not on one of the “big” instances. Unfortunately, this community also seems to be a poor alternative if this is how their admin typically acts.

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223 comments

Well then, time to block your instance.
Elad Barashi, who has worked in the Israeli entertainment industry for several years, sparked outrage after posting on X: "Good morning, let there be a Shoa (Holocaust) in Gaza."
In another post, he wrote, "I can't understand the people here in the State of Israel who don't want to fill Gaza with gas showers... or train cars... and finish this story! Let there be a Holocaust in Gaza."
Zionazis know that they're protected by these idiotic, fascist laws, which is why they feel free to make these sorts of statements. They can directly invoke the Holocaust to talk about what they want happening in Gaza because they know anyone who mentions their comments will be denounced as an "antisemite."
To quote Aaron Bushnell:
Many of us like to ask ourselves, 'What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now.
Turns out what this instance would do is to protect the perpetrators from criticism.
- Turns out what this instance would do is to protect the perpetrators from criticism.
  It's perfectly legal in Germany to criticise the government of Israel. But, for example, if you're starting to call out for the death of entire population groups or nations, this quickly becomes illegal for good reasons. Further specific laws and intricacies are mentioned and linked to in this post, which you seem to not have read or understood.
  
  I understand perfectly, including the fact that you are lying. It's not limited to "calling for the death of an entire population," but also extends to opposition to the Zionist project in general.
  Israel is an apartheid ethnostate, and its identity as "Israel" is predicated on keeping Palestinians, who represent a majority of the population, as second class citizens, most of whom are denied basic human rights including the right to vote. To advocate, as any leftist should, for extending full and equal rights to Palestinians, is the same as advocating for the abolition of the Israeli state. Even if such rights were granted by the Israeli government, if the majority view was represented in government, the nation would quickly lose its identity as a Jewish ethnostate. As such, I say that from the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free, and I call for a one state solution that would eliminate the beligerant, expansionist, genocidal state of Israel, just as similar states have been abolished in the past, including apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.
  What I just said is not "calling for the death of entire population groups," yet it is still illegal in Germany
  As for making it illegal to call for the death of nations, yes, that is the problem. Death to the Confederate States of America. Death to Nazi Germany. Death to Imperial Japan. Death to apartheid South Africa. Death to Zionist Israel. Genocidal states do not have the right to exist and calling for the death/abolition of such a state is a legitimate political stance. Anarchists, for example, call for the deaths of every state. A ban on calling for the death/abolition of a state is a ban on all anarchists and communists, it is effectively a ban on leftism.
  
  including the fact that you are lying
  You not understanding german laws does not mean that I'm lying.
  extends to opposition to the Zionist project in general
  Please define what you mean by "Zionist project", so I can respond appropriately.
  its identity as "Israel" is predicated on keeping Palestinians [...] as second class citizens
  I don't think the "israeli identity" requires discrimination of Palestinians.
  for extending full and equal rights to Palestinians, is the same as advocating for the abolition of the Israeli state
  Sounds like a false dichotomy to me. Demanding equal rights does not require the abolition of the state Israel.
  I call for a one state solution that would eliminate the [...] state of Israel
  This is stuff that can become difficult to say in Germany. You're free to critsise their military actions as well as their inhumane treatment of Palestinians. However, calling for the elimination of the entire state Israel is a problem, since German legislature affirms the protection of the life of Jews.
  What I just said is not "calling for the death of entire population groups," yet it is still illegal in Germany
  Regarding the article you've linked: this has happened right after the gruesome Hamas attacks and the mood was, understandably, extremely loaded. In a reaction the federal ministry of the interior has imposed a ban on any symbols and flags associated with Hamas. This, although ambigious and rather unproblematic before, also includes "From the river to the sea". As far as I know, not all attourney general's offices seek prosecution on this particular slogan though. And the German courts have not finally decided whether this slogan is denying the existential rights of Israel. Unfortunately, such a case has recently been retracted by the accused such that the German federal supreme court of justice won't be able to make a ruling about this very soon. See also (German article): https://www.lto.de/recht/hintergruende/h/lg-berlin-502kls2124-hamas-from-river-to-sea-rechtskraeftig
  You can perfectly argue for a (peaceful) one-state or two-state solution, as long as this doesn't infringe Israel's existential rights and does not advocate for harming the life of Jews. Currently, you just need to be mindful about using symbolisms that can be associated with Hamas.
  Regarding the death of nations (or the nation Israel in particular), see above as I covered both the infrignement of existential rights of states as well as directly harming the life of people.
  
  It's a troll. Please stop feeding.
  
  Hey, since you're so, 100% confident that the user you linked to before is a raging antisemite who wants to "kill all Jews," since the only possible way that anyone could interpret their comment differently is if they were a "troll" acting in bad faith, then why, as a mod of c/germany, have you not banned them from your community? Why are you still allowing such a person to access and comment in a community that you mod?
  If you won't ban them, then it's pretty obvious that you are a troll, that you're trying to pretend that they were saying something different from what they actually said, and you are fully conscious of that fact. If you actually believed it was so obvious, then there's absolutely no reason for you to not ban them.
  I look forward to seeing you ban someone for a comment defending your own moderation policy, it will be hilarious.
  
  if they were a “troll” acting in bad faith, then why, as a mod of c/germany, have you not banned them from your community?
  aka doubling down, so you peeps can decry our instance as being fascist?
  
  Dude, stop it. It's the first Usenet-rule.
  
  Mod of c/germany refuses to even discuss banning someone who says they want to "kill all Jews" declaring all criticism of that decision as "trolling."
  Not beating the Nazi allegations.
  
  Aka following their claimed beliefs to their immediate logical conclusion.
  I guess you're fine with someone you claim is an actual, overt antisemite, someone who anyone can plainly see wants to kill all Jews, just running around in your spaces, because you're afraid if you ban them, people will call your instance fascist? Is that what you're telling me?
  The reality is that that interpretation of their comment is obviously wrong, and you all know it. You're blatantly acting in bad faith. The reason that user isn't banned is because you know that they aren't actually an antisemite who wants to kill all Jews. Because you know that my interpretation of their comment is correct, or at least, reasonable enough that other people would see it my way. But you're lying and pretending that my interpretation is not reasonable so that you can dismiss me as a "troll" and virtue signal to your in-group. That's all this is, you don't care what's actually true, and you seem to think downvotes change reality.
  I am objectively correct about this. The reason you can't acknowledge it is this psychosis that if a Jewish person claims they're being persecuted, no matter how spurious and untrue that claim is, you have to accept it unquestionably. And you think that doing this, even to the point of coming out the other side defending genocide and Nazi shit, somehow makes you not a fascist.
  
  Please define what you mean by “Zionist project”, so I can respond appropriately.
  The Zionist project is the attempt to set up, maintain, and expand a colonial Jewish ethnostate, on the incorrect assumption that a multicultural, multiethnic state that upholds the rights of minorities is impossible, and the incorrect assumption that an ethnostate is the only means of protecting the Jewish people.
  I don’t think the “israeli identity” requires discrimination of Palestinians.
  Sounds like a false dichotomy to me. Demanding equal rights does not require the abolition of the state Israel.
  If everyone in the region could vote, the state would no longer be called "Israel" and it would no longer be a specifically Jewish state, because Palestinians are the majority. They would no doubt vote to change the name to Palestine. ONLY through suppression of their rights can there be a state there called "Israel."
  However, calling for the elimination of the entire state Israel is a problem, since German legislature affirms the protection of the life of Jews.
  Regarding the death of nations (or the nation Israel in particular), see above as I covered both the infrignement of existential rights of states as well as directly harming the life of people.
  What does "eliminating the state" have to do with "not protecting the life of Jews?"
  When South Africa was eliminated, some of the white colonizers chose to stay in the new state, many went to Israel so they could keep doing apartheid, and others went back to where they came or to other places. Just because their state was destroyed doesn't mean that the people were exterminated. Same thing with the elimination of the Nazi German state. If the destruction of a state was equivalent with extermination, then we wouldn't be having this conversation because there would be no Germans.
  If I say that Nazi Germany didn't have a right to exist, does that constitute "directly harming the life of German people?" Yes or no, please.
  Regarding the article you’ve linked: this has happened right after the gruesome Hamas attacks and the mood was, understandably, extremely loaded.
  Oh, I've heard that one before. "We all went a little crazy after 9/11." Used to justify all sorts of abuses, from Guantanamo Bay to Abu Ghraib. Has any miscarriage of justice, ever, not had some kind of excuse like that? Was Adolf Hitler's seizure of power not a response to the "extremely loaded mood" following the Reichstag Fire?
  Of course, your side gets to make excuses like that, but if I argue that Palestinian violence is motivated by the "extremely loaded mood" of living under a genocidal system of apartheid, somehow, I doubt you'll extend the same courtesy. Seems like it's only when white people do bad shit that excuses like that matter.
  You can perfectly argue for a (peaceful) one-state or two-state solution, as long as this doesn’t infringe Israel’s existential rights
  You can argue for a one-state solution, so long as it doesn't infringe on Israel's existential rights? So then, you can't argue for a one state solution at all, unless it's a single Israeli state in which Palestinians are denied their basic human rights.
- Bro but it's illegal 😭 if you don't follow nazi law to oppose the Nazis how are you any better?
  Fucking cowards
  
  It seems you haven't understood this post.

223 comments