Capitalism is the root of evil

capitalism is the system whereby greed is raised above all other human impulses though. in most other systems, sure, people can be greedy, but they aren't rewarded for it, and people who aren't naturally greedy don't get pushed and trained to be greedy as the highest aspiration.

Capitalism rewards greed, thus perpetuating it and entrenching it. So capitalism is the root of our greed epidemic

It doesn't reward greed, it rewards putting your resources into profitable endeavors. This is something you need to do in 100% communism as well, if you wish success.
- No it doesn't, the workers who put their labour into profitable companies aren't rewarded for it
  
  the reward is wages and if the workers unionize they can increase them
  
  Wages are necessarily lower than the value created by them on average.
Every type rewards greed because humans and their predecessors have been trained to be greedy for all of time. Be it corruption or by design...it will always be.
- Not our recent predecessors, they had communal social structures.
  
  They did war with each other which included plundering, rape, and slavery. All humans are dicks
  
  Just like Ukraine is warring with Russia, making Ukraine a dick, right?
  
  Russia is this dick in this war. Ukraine has not been a saint in its history. No country has. No native American tribe has been a saint either. If you think one has... name it.
  
  which one(s) haven't been and why weren't they?
  
  Virtually all practiced slavery with those captured through war. Slave labor was common. Sex slaves were also used pre-columbian. Many even accepted African slaves as gifts from the British in more recent times.
  
  you're conflating slavery with the slave trade and nations with people.
  both are reprehensible, but the barbarity of the slave trade that americans engaged in is on an entirely genocidal & morally bankrupt level than the slavery practiced by some native americans and its practice was relagated individual members of native americans; not entire nations.
  
  Yet they still practiced slavery and also taking of children during conflics to assimilate into their own tribe... which is a war crime now. Point is people are dicks everywhere.
You have it backwards. Greed is the root of our capitalism epidemic. And you think communist leaders are immune to greed? Just look at NK. The people share what little scraps there are while government officials live very easy lives
- Greed is not an intrinsic human characteristic, as I already explained, and further life under brutal sanctions and embargo is difficult for everyone. The DPRK manages to scrape by with what they can, and which is why lifting the embargo and sanctions is the best thing we can do for the Northern Korean people.
  
  the best thing we can do for the Northern Korean people
  I think the best thing for the people of North Korea is to not force them to live under a brutal dictator.
  
  The people of the DPRK support the system they have, whether it truly has a dictator or not. To overthrow their system by force, ie what the US did in Iraq, would be greatly opposed by the people of the DPRK and yet again the US would end up slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Korean civilians, just like they did in the 50s.
  Lifting the sanctions and embargo would dramatically improve their conditions, all the embargo has done is starve people to death during particularly harsh periods, like the Arduous March in the 90s when the Soviet Union, the DPRK's primary trading partner, dissolved. It isn't showing any chances of hurting the legitimacy of the DPRK's government, it's purely to torture the Korean People into opening up their economy so the US can loot and pilliage it like it did to Iraq.
  
  I thought the US killed millions, not 100,000s?
  
  Estimates on the exact distribution of millitary vs Civilian deaths are not known, though millions died in total. That's just from direct involvement in the war, and not the results of sanctions and embargo or other inflicted terror. I use "hundreds of thousands" because it's
  Undeniably correct, even with bourgeois sources alone, and
  Still gets across the sheer brutality of the US's genocide on Korea
  It's quite possible that civilian casualties do reach the millions, especially if you include the South Koreans killed by the US and the ROK government in areas like Jeju Island.
- I can't look at NK because the world capitalist economy isolated them, so I'm not going to argue about their material conditions. I don't think anyone is immune to greed, but I think having a system that rewards greed is going to turn it from an aberration to an epidemic.
  To your first point, let's pretend you're right and look at it in the abstract. What is to be done? Do you want to kill greed? How would you do that?
  
  I can’t look at NK because the world capitalist economy isolated them
  It's a hereditary dictatorship that isolates itself to control all information its public can access.
  Simping for alternative authoritarian regimes is NOT an effective way of fighting the tyranny of Capital.
  
  Not trying to simp. Just saying you and I don't know what's really going on over there because of how our dear leaders control all the information that comes out.
  
  Whose dear leaders? When reporters visit North Korea, who is controlling their movements and managing what they are allowed to see?
  
  To your first point, let’s pretend you’re right and look at it in the abstract. What is to be done? Do you want to kill greed? How would you do that?
  You're getting somewhere! First, don't point your finger at capitalism as the problem. Second, acknowledge & understand greed and how it is inherent in all human nature. Third, build systems that minimize the damage done by individual or corporate greed. Check against consolidation, monopolization, and short term Wall St like thinking of endless growth. Four, make sure socialist programs exist to support everyone, and capitalism is not the only way to live, it's optional. When you think like that, the European nations seem to be doing things quite alright, but they are still vulnerable to greed. And so they must be vigilant against greed, not capitalism.
  
  First, don't point your finger at capitalism as the problem.
  You already lost me
  Second, acknowledge & understand greed and how it is inherent in all human nature.
  I would rather acknowledge and encourage humans inherent nature to cooperate and grow together.
  Third, build systems that minimize the damage done by individual or corporate greed.
  Like building an economy that doesn't inherently reward greed? I wonder what that would look like.
  Check against consolidation, monopolization, and short term Wall St like thinking of endless growth.
  These things exist because of capitalism
  Four, make sure socialist programs exist to support everyone
  That's social welfare. Being socialist means the workers own the means of production
  capitalism is not the only way to live, it's optional
  It's so easy to live in the USA and just not do capitalism /s
  the European nations seem to be doing things quite alright
  Do you understand that their wealth was pillaged from the global south?
  Can you give me a description of what makes socialism bad solely based on how it works (not referencing any country who may have attempted it)?
  
  First, don’t point your finger at capitalism as the problem.
  You already lost me
  I know, many here have have an automatic trigger on 'capitalism', but I appreciate you trying. I will try to respond sincerely.
  Second, acknowledge & understand greed and how it is inherent in all human nature.
  I would rather acknowledge and encourage humans inherent nature to cooperate and grow together.
  Me too! Cooperation is the good against the evil of greed. But greed still exists, you can't wish it away, you have to strategize against.
  Third, build systems that minimize the damage done by individual or corporate greed.
  Like building an economy that doesn’t inherently reward greed? I wonder what that would look like.
  Greed is rewarded in every economy.
  Check against consolidation, monopolization, and short term Wall St like thinking of endless growth.
  These things exist because of capitalism
  No, they exist because of greed & corruption and failure of systems to contain those things.
  Four, make sure socialist programs exist to support everyone
  That’s social welfare. Being socialist means the workers own the means of production
  No, socialist systems like free housing, healthcare, education can exist alongside capitalism. Worker owned systems like cooperatives still operate in a market.
  capitalism is not the only way to live, it’s optional
  It’s so easy to live in the USA and just not do capitalism /s
  It's impossible in the USA, I'm with you.
  the European nations seem to be doing things quite alright
  Do you understand that their wealth was pillaged from the global south?
  Yes, the British East India company uprooted my own ancestors and erased all culture. I'm against imperialism as much as you, but this has nothing to do with it.
  Can you give me a description of what makes socialism bad solely based on how it works (not referencing any country who may have attempted it)?
  Lack of standardization means you can't be sure of what you're getting. Is the milk from this farmer as good as the other farmer?
  Same price for same good means lack of incentive to improve / innovate. Why grass feed your cows when milk will only sell for a set fixed price?
  Markets will still exist, you can't wish them away. It's human nature. I want to make cake and feed you, but I still need to buy the ingredients, invest the capital, take the risk. Capitalism just rewards that risk.
  Greed still exists, maybe I can add a little water to the milk, huh, who will ever find out?
  Corruption still exists and without checks & balances, a centrally controlled system is very likely to being corrupted at the core.
  
  Cowbee is mostly correct so I'm not going to address everything but there are 2 pieces I want to respond to.
  Greed is rewarded in every economy.
  That doesn't seem to be true. Like an economy that doesn't funnel money into individuals. Or even moneyless economies like Library or Gift. (Though moneyless economies imply we're achieving actual communism, going beyond socialism)
  No, socialist systems like free housing, healthcare, education can exist alongside capitalism. Worker owned systems like cooperatives still operate in a market.
  Are you talking about free housing (etc) programs being managed as a cooperative, alongside a commodities market of cooperatives? If yes, that's not capitalism, that's socialism. If no, then you must be talking about a welfare state like what's in Scandinavia, which isn't socialist.
  Kind of relevant to both points, there are a few different schools of socialism so you could see if any make more sense to you.
  
  The first half of your comment is attributing a static and supernatural quality to the concept of "greed" in a manner that obfuscates the underlying material structures, and why greed is expressed in different ways and degrees depending on the system. This is wrong.
  Secondly, Social Programs are not Socialism. Socialism is an economy where Public Ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, while Capitalism is where Private Ownership is the principle. Whichever has firm control of the state, large firms, and key industries is the principle aspect. A cooperative in the US is not a single fragment of Socialism, just like a market in the PRC is not simply Capitalism.
  Now, for your five points:
  This is not a problem with Socialism in any capacity. I truly don't understand what you mean by saying standardization is an issue with Socialism.
  Price fixing is not Socialism itself, but a tool. Socialist systems can and do employ price fixing on some goods, but this is a tool that works well in some situtations and not so well in others, and as such Socialist systems can apply them where needed.
  Markets are not Capitalism. Markets work well at lower stages in development, but gradually monopolize and centralize over time, making it more effective to publicly own and plan. You agree with Marx when you say you can't wish them away, but you imply they will always be useful based on a biological need to trade, which does not exist.
  Regulations and oversight exists within Socialism, directly breaking the law can be punished and audited. This point is silly.
  Checks and balances can be better implemented in Socialist systems where private individuals do not weild massive armies of influence. This is another silly point.
  I recommend you read up on Marxism, I keep an introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list you can check out. If you haven't investigated a subject, why speak as though you have?
- communist leaders
  Found the problem
  
  I don't follow, Communism in the Marxian sense has administration and thus leadership. Are you suggesting a different structure?

Human aspects like greed are not intrinsic to humanity, but created by the material conditions and mechanisms surrounding them, and are thus malleable and expressed in lower or greater degrees in different systems. Capitalism in particular expresses greed as its entire foundation is the relentless accumulation of profit and exansion of markets and commodification for the purposes of private wealth.

lol, so stupid

So many replies to this topic are just ‘everything sucks because humans are horrible’.
I could understand a kid making angsty comments like that, but it’s just embarrassing when a grown-up does it.

Technically correct because greed is the cause of capitalism. But don't be fooled into thinking there's a long term, greed restrained capitalism that is going to work out for us; wealth is power. With sufficient wealth, a man can raise an army.

As soon as you allow him to accumulate it, you raise the possibility that he will buy your politicians and corrupt your citizens through amplifying his messages to make society ever greedier in his image. He will hire people to make unlawful works, and pay the fines and dodge the court room.

When you resist this corruption, they respond with fascism.

Greed is not the cause of capitalism. Capitalism exists to create value for society. My grandfather, an immigrant, opened a bakery 50 years ago to serve his community and raise his family. I, an immigrant, opened a grocery store 10 years ago to serve my community and raise my family. Capitalism can be honest & hard work. In both cases, community over profits was a core principle.
Greed comes with accumulation and has to be restrained.
- Capitalism doesn't really exist soley in the micro, you must factor in the macro. A small gorcery store exists in the context of Capitalism, it isn't Capitalist itself. The purpose of Capitalism systemically is Capital accumulation and the increase in profits through the general process of converting money into commodities, and into a higher quantity of money, thus seeding even more money for more commodoties and even more money after that in an endless loop.
  
  The purpose of Capitalism systemically is Capital accumulation and the increase in profits through the general process of converting money into commodities in an endless loop.
  I disagree. The purpose of capitalism systemically is to simply allow for value creation for the entire ecosystem (customers, employees, vendors) and give anyone the individual freedom to do so.
  Current Western flavor of capitalism has allowed short-sighted greed to take over because Wall St demands so.
  On an ideological level, you and I are the same - community over commerce. I support capitalism only under such principles.
  
  Capitalism did not arise out of ideological reasons, but as a material process with the shift from small manufacturing to large industry. It arised historically, not because it is natural (it's only a few hundred years old) nor because someone thought it was a good idea. The mechanical process is as I described. Ideological justifications for it, ie liberalism, arose after the fact.
  Value is created even in non-Capitalist systems, and further, western Capitalism is Capitalism of a more developed stage. You cannot perpetuate small market mechanics, small firms will either grow or die. Once markets coalesce, there really is nowhere to go but revolution and Socialism, or barbarism and collapse.
  
  The problem of 'growing big' has to be solved via cooperatives operating in the same markets, not by disbanding the entire system.
  
  That's not a solution, though. Cooperatives within Capitalism are subject to the same rules as other firms, only without firm control of the state. These cooperatives will either grow or die, and you end up at the same necessary point, revolution and Socialism, or barbarism. Centralization is a fact of markets that sustain over a long period of time, ergo we should master those laws to make it as democratic and equitable a system as possible. In other words, Socialism.
  
  My brother, I gave you a version of capitalism where workers globally own the means of production. We'll even put measures against monopolization, labor exploitation, and short term profit seeking. Hell even add 100% taxation over a billion dollars so nobody gets too big. You'll still won't like it because it ain't communism.
  
  We won't get to that fantasy land you described, so why bother creating it in our mind palaces? Utopia-building isn't a useful form of analysis when describing how we get from A to B. You need to take ownership of the State for that to work, and end Capitalism to begin with.
  
  You're the one in the fantasy land. We're already in capitalism, I'm only adding cooperatives, you know the whole workers owing the means of production that you advocate for. I'm literally taking us from where we currently are to a better place, A to B. You want to erase the whole drawing board and start over.
  
  With these measures, there won't be a free market, which means the creation of value will be regulated. I don't see why you would call it capitalism.
  
  What is a free market and how will it cease to exist? I can still make any cake and sell it to anyone at whatever price. Free market still exists.
  
  I think the way forward is to have socialism provide all necessities for people - meal kits, utilities, shelter, transport, free gasoline, healthcare, and so forth that are designed to be boring but effective. Capitalism can be used to obtain luxuries - a wider variety of food, fancier cars, bigger houses, brazilian buttlifts, singing bass decorations, and so forth. Money is solely used for such things.
  By doing it this way, people can choose to protest or strike without suffering too much from doing so. Work becomes optional, since survival is ensured. Combined with imposing floors and ceilings on wealth, we can promote democracy and socialism, without sacrificing the vitality of a healthy capitalism.
  
  That's not really an accurate overview of what constitutes Capitalism and Socialism. Capitalism is not "markets" and Socialism isn't government services, either. They are each determined by which aspect of the economy is principle, ie in control of the state, large firms, and key industries. Private Ownership as principle is Capitalism, Public Ownership as principle is Socialism. Both systems have a private and a public sector, but the trajectory of the system is very different.
  It sounds like you're talking about the Nordic countries, ie deteriorating Imperialist states that are seeing crumbling worker protections and rely on super-exploitation of the Global South to subsidize cost of living and safety nets.
  
  That sounds lovely to me!