Shutting Down on July 31. This fediverse experiment was a failure.

End of the road. Wish I could say it's been a fun trip, but that would be a lie. Running this instance started out as a fun project, but it has been nothing but a nightmare for a long, long time. I'm looking forward to the freedom I will have after being shackled to this mess for the last two years.

This instance is shutting down for good on 7/31/2025.

If you want exports of anything, let me know. After that, I'm pulling the SSDs and going full Office Space on them.

Edit 07/12/25: Thank you all for the kind words, understanding, and appreciation. While I have been consumed by the negativity here, I never forgot about the positives. Unfortunately, the negatives can and do become overwhelming.

If you appreciate what I've been trying to do, then please do not let the efforts die with my departure. The toxicity I've described cannot be solved by any individual alone and requires a group effort.

Don't engage with those acting in bad faith or just trying to get a rise out of people. This is basically "don't feed the trolls" but sometimes the trolls are subtle.
Don't let emotion cloud your logic and try to remain rational. Always try to see the bigger picture and keep that in focus. Context matters. Ramifications of actions matter.
When you see people calling for violence, ask yourself "And then what happens?" Because it's most definitely not going to be "we all join hands in a circle, a rainbow appears overhead, and the world is saved".
On the same note, a large percentage of those calling for violence don't even live here. They're just trying to rile people up or spread chaos by feeding on our pent-up anger.
There are very few absolutes in this world, but people around here love to speak in them. If someone only speaks in absolutes, then they're missing most of the picture which is in the middle. Beware of those people.
If you see someone twisting what other people are saying just so they can attack them, please report them. This is a common form of trolling/harassment which is often difficult for mods to detect without personally investing themselves in every conversation thread. This often manifests as "Oh, so you think X, so you must think Y" where Y = an absolutely insane jump in logic. Then they attack the person as if they had said Y with other people dog-piling on afterward.
Admins: Please, please start clamping down on extremism and general toxicity. No psychopath, racist, etc has ever come back from a temp ban a better person. Force these unhinged people back to the fringe instances and defederate from those.
Most importantly: be good to one another. At the end of the day, we all have more in common than we differ.

Original plea below, though it's superseded by the above.

I'm gonna get right to the point: I'm burnt out, I ~~kind of~~ hate this place, and I really don't want to be here anymore.

I started it not because I kept getting banned from elsewhere but because I wanted to do and be part of something better. Well, two years in, and I cannot say this place is any better, just differently bad if not worse. Too many people here seem to think that because it's not "corpo social media" that anything goes, and boy do some people really run with that.

The average Lemming has the nuance of a wrecking ball and the maturity of a junior high edge lord, and trying to keep the peace here has become more than what I want to deal with. The worst part is that they're so caught up in their own self-righteousness that they can't see they're just as bad or worse than what they're spewing violent rhetoric at; trying to talk sense into anyone or de-escalate things is immediately met with "bootlicker", wild accusations, and/or worse.

I need help. Well, really, Lemmy needs help, professional help, but barring that, then I need some more referees to keep this place under control.

This instance has a mission, and I am no longer able to deal with the volume of toxic shitheads who do nothing but call for violence, take people out of context and jump to insane conclusions, and just act like petulant fucking children. Seriously, the demographic here is disgusting and needs to grow the hell up.

~~So this is it: Either some people step up and help to keep this place sane, or I'm shutting it down. Clock is ticking~~

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49 comments

WHAT?!?!
I have wanted to quit Lemmy / the Threadiverse too, several times, but meeting people like you (and there are damn too few of such!) have restored my faith and allowed me to stay.
I want to say some stuff, if it is okay:
you are not alone. See above. Beyond that... we see it too. This place is so much worse than irl, it is "the internet" (a place not just for sharing pics of cats, but somehow also for those who thought 4chan was too lame... and now demand to share the same place as those wanting to share pics of cats?!).
this was inevitable: I read somewhere, when I accepted my second mod position on Reddit, that all the good mods leave their communities after ~1-2 years. Dealing with the cesspool of humanity is draining. Trying to clean up an entire instance - whew, this speaks to your success that you made it this far, rather than a failure that you could not go further. Do you want to know the definitive proof, in my mind, that confirms this for me? It is the fact that you haven't shut it down already, but gave a deadline and are willing to stick it out to the end of the month. This is the end result of a CONSIDERED and THOUGHT-OUT deliberative process, not an emotional breakdown. Yes you feel emotions about it, obviously, but your decision is also supported by logic.

please take a break (I mean after you shut down the instance, not in lieu of it). You deserve it! No really: you truly do! (though I cannot promise to be here myself when you return - this soul-sucking void has a way of burning us all out) After that... selfishly: I really, strongly hope to see you here as a regular user. But if your mental health would benefit from the opposite, then I would rather see you not - wait, does that make any sense?

PieFed has a number of features that sound like ideas that I've heard you say that you implement manually, although it offers ways to do them automatically, e.g. auto-collapsing, auto-hiding, even auto-removing content by people with extraordinarily low reputation scores, and with the option to measure reputation within the specific community in question - e.g. someone cannot run up a high karma on hexbear and then come here and use that to troll piefed users. The really cool thing is that while setting up those "rules" takes effort, their implementation then scale up to however many / all users you want. Caveat: I have never tried modding a PieFed community so I do not know how much of that remains theoretical vs. is available right now. Anyway that's a thought for the future - I mean as a mod, on some existing PieFed server, not necessarily spinning up your own although that's obviously an option as well, but I figure not a likely one given your burnt-out status. Yes, trolls will complain that you have blocked them from participating in it but... this was inevitable. It is your house: you have the right to run it however you please.
whatever you do, do it because of who you are, not for others. I... well this is easy to say, so very much harder (impossible?) to implement, though I need to keep trying! Oh wait, but we were talking about you here, yeah, totally, "you"... yeah...
at the end of the day, the Fediverse still has merit, imho, simply b/c it is out from under the heel of the oppressors. Yes it attracts children here, but also those of us yearning to be free. This takes EFFORT - as you more than most of us know - but it has its advantages as well. Case in point: Reddit simply is not worth my time to comment in, these days, I find. I read - b/c some things can only be found there - but do not engage, b/c it is not welcoming. (Sadly, most of Lemmy is not very welcoming either... - and yes, I have ABSOLUTELY tried to be the change that I wanted to see, to promote "engagement" everywhere, as compared to people posting but then nobody wanting to comment, so I try to help even if I am literally the only one who does so)

With lemm.ee shutting down, and hexbear losing its license (yes it got it back but it really and truly did LOSE it before that!), now more than ever it is quite obvious that the Threadiverse is struggling under the weight of the toxicity burden. Though I do have great hopes now that PieFed is replacing Lemmy. Take your break, rest, heal, and I hope that you will return stronger than ever before! (as a regular user, possibly a mod) You deserve it, internet ~~stranger~~ friend.
Edit: omg the people downvoting this post... how is dubvee.org shutting down "not relevant" to a community literally called Dubvee Meta [email protected] ? The obliviousness is astonishing to me... and only serves to reinforce OP's point about ignorant behaviors poisoning the well here on the Threadiverse.
- Thanks. At this time, I have no plans to return in any capacity (though if I do, it might be on my spiritual guide instance Beehaw).
  The only problem with Piefed is....it's the same demographic as Lemmy and thus is going to have the same toxicity problems. It may make it easier to sweep it under the rug but it doesn't address it at the source.
  My honest, no-longer-gives-a-fuck-what-people-think, opinion is that instance admins across the board need to take a much, MUCH harder stance against toxic behavior if the Fediverse is to succeed and not collapse into a cesspit singularity. No more slaps on the wrists, temp bans, etc. I'm (all too) aware there's a revolving door of shitheads, but the behavior remains the same and they often get to fly under the radar after putting on a fake mustache and hat and coming back in.
  I'm as upset as anyone about the state of the world, but I'm a functional adult capable of expressing myself without every second comment being "guillotines, Luigi, violence, violence , revolution!". I'm on the spectrum, though classified as "high functioning" but I learned a long time ago that neurodivergency is not an excuse for toxic behavior. I mention that only because it's a common excuse that gets thrown around, and i don't buy it for one second.
  You and many other good people, yeah, I'm gonna miss. I'm also gonna miss TenForward terribly; it's one of the very few communities that actually feels like a community. But, unfortunately, I gotta do what's best for me and that's get the hell away from this place.
  
  I'm terribly sad to see you go. You've been one of my favorite people on Lemmy. I'm glad I could help in a small part on tenforward. I totally understand your reasoning and support your decision. Feel free to reach out any time.
  
  Thanks. That means a lot and back at you and the rest of the regulars at 10F.
  TenForward is probably what kept me here as long as I have. It's like a shining example of what this place could be, so props to you, @[email protected] , TPM, Stamets, Squid, OpenStars, and everyone who helps (or formerly helped) make that what it is. Everyone there is so supportive. They build each other up / build on each other rather than tear each other down. I meant what I said: It's the only community I deal with that actually feels like a community. I truly will miss it and all of you chill Trekkies.
  That said, I do still have my .world account, and I'm not quite sure what to do with it. I've stepped down as mod from all the communities that aren't just me, but until I figure out what to do with those, I haven't deleted that account. Maybe I'll mothball it and pop in and say hi once in a while.
  
  I have been fairly open - though not quite outspoken - in voicing my concerns that I do not think that the Threadiverse will succeed. Though the extent that there is even the tiniest glimmer of hope, it lies with PieFed (or Sublinks etc.), rather than Lemmy.
  When I petittion to get Hexbear.net defederated from Discuss.Online, thereby opening up a generic instance that would be open to all incoming people fleeing from Reddit from Huffman's shittiness, I started to have a brief hope. It did not last long, b/c the USA elections happened, and more importantly the trolls seemed to switch their strategy, no longer remaining constrained on the Triad servers and instead appearing everywhere, by which I mean Lemmy.World, lemm.ee, sh.itjust.works, etc. - though importantly not truly and literally "everywhere" e.g. dubvee.org, beehaw.org, and the like. Anyway, before that I would see ~90% of the most batshit insane comments coming from hexbear.net, and then after their removal still ~90% of the most insane ones leftover coming from lemmy.ml, i.e. defederating (even if only by personal blocking since the Lemmy version of an "instance block" is laughably ineffective) really did have a chance of cleaning up >99% of the Threadiverse. But then after the elections they started coming from more normal instances, and I gave up that hope that the tide could ever be turned.
  And now I have little hope that the Threadiverse will ever grow - obviously it will "survive", but like as a Linux forum where people circle-jerk about Arch Linux (I love Linux too but... dayum, can't we talk about something else as well as that?) and leftist politics, but nothing else that is worth talking about.
  I have even had to resort to going back to Reddit - damnit the events happening in the world are IMPORTANT, and so when I've blocked most of the toxic communities on Lemmy, or even when I don't block anything at all, that NEWS often simply is not here to be found and read, much less discussed! :-(
  The Threadiverse is simply in the process of becoming the next 4chan - we had hope that it would be the next Reddit, and unfortunately that too is becoming the case, but on a speed-run to its current state, it would seem, with both AI scraping every instance and power-hungry moderators and instance admins (especially Lemmy.ml), and also somehow even more authoritarian control such as lack of modmail or even notification that an action has been taken against someone (except on Lemmy.World where they seem to have modified the code to send such a notification - yet Lemmy.ml refuses to do similarly across all of Lemmy, either because they are too overwhelmed with other priorities or more likely they simply do not care: Lemmy.ml works as intended, the rest is everyone else just piggy-backing off of their efforts made for themselves for their prioritizations, while if we want better then we have to go and build it for ourselves - which is fantastic to see that YOU have done just that!:-).
  That said, I still do have some hope for PieFed. Its focus on "trusted instances" can help provide a separation from those that are merely "present but not trusted", providing the ability for votes from e.g. Beehaw to count more (exclusively if the moderator asks for that feature?) than votes from e.g. Lemmy.ml, assuming that the latter has not already been defederated from.
  Like an immune system, I believe that we are under attack - it is both a signal that we are doing something of importance here, and also an enormous burden for those who have to fight on the front lines, as you have been doing. I can well understand your desire to sit back and rest for a good bit, before (if ever) returning even fractionally to that fray.
  But even then, the Threadiverse might not succeed. Or if it does, it may have to be without such people as you (or I), who would rather have nothing than have to wade through fecal matter in order to find a glimmer of a tiny nugget of something worthwhile. There are libraries, there are books to read, there are TV shows to watch - we don't need to read crap shoved into our faces virtually all of the time, on that point I am with you. Afaik, this may be how actual adults behave? (though especially after seeing the results of virtually any USA election, I have to add the caveat: regardless of physical age!:-P)
  Go rest my friend, I hope to see you again, perhaps, one day when you've healed a bit. :-)
  
  the trolls seemed to switch their strategy, no longer remaining constrained on the Triad servers and instead appearing everywhere, by which I mean Lemmy.World, lemm.ee, sh.itjust.works, etc.
  Yeah, they sure have. I had a handle on it for a good while, but when lemm.ee shut down, most of my bans were basically undone as those spawned anew elsewhere (.ee accounts made up a large portion of my issued bans). I found I just didn't have it in me to go through that again; it took months to identify and ban the trolls, toxics, and extremists the first time.
  And if that weren't bad enough, other instances started spinning up parallel Piefed instances, so many of the banned accounts came back with Piefed alts. Combined with the .ee shutdown happening at the same time, it was just too much whack-a-mole.
  Imagine spending 2 years tediously cleaning up a field of broken glass, finally thinking you've gotten the worst of it, and then someone comes along and dumps the trash can over and you have to start all over again.
  The Threadiverse is simply in the process of becoming the next 4chan
  I called that close to a year ago when I got the first whiff of the toxic atmosphere that was brewing. Can't find (or rather don't feel like finding) the post I made, but I said almost exactly what you said. I also said that if this place started to stink like 4chan, I'd pull the plug. And so I am.
  
  The strategy of "hiding" - especially in plain sight - is a good trick, e.g. look how well it has been working recently here in the USA. Fox News is allowed say whatever it wants, and others what they want, and now the two sides cannot agree on the most simple and basic of facts, much less interpretations of them.
  This means, sigh, that I think your strategy of trying to stay on top of it manually might have always been doomed to fail? Automated tools may be the only way. Even if they were less than ideal. Like if a tool could implement the same way that we normal people interact: "okay fine I will listen to you b/c I KNOW you and I have ENJOYED listening to you in the past, so now I will listen to you still yet more", like an escalating amount of privilege based on "reputation". The trolls are always the first to cry out against this, so perhaps this thought is correct or at least along the right track? :-P
  And this is why PieFed gives me hope: it is no longer so reliant upon the manual efforts of a moderator to curate my experience for me, now I can engage with the tools to curate it for me however I want, and then change them (retroactively applied even!) further. Here is a recent example: on your recent post https://dubvee.org/post/3789665, [email protected] has been trolling people sharing their fairly negative opinion. This is a 2-year-old account that somehow I have never run across before iirc, but from the looks of things they are more than merely having a bad day, they are pulling out all the stops "I am such a nice guy, you should feel privileged to have me here", all of it, basically just outright begging & pleading to be noticed and moderated, since I guess negative attention is still attention, right? Well on PieFed.social, their account name has not one but TWO danger / warning signs placed next to it, which if I mouse over one it says "Very low reputation. Beware." This user is not "banned", nor "moderated", so they don't try to leave and make a new skin to hide behind, they are instead simply "labelled", so that I as an end-user can decide what action I would like to take. And personally I would like to read their content... and then keep scrolling. At one point I thought about responding, but seeing these icons, decided against it. They only have 8 posts and 80 comments total, but a LARGE number of those are zero or even negative (and sometimes by a LARGE negative, like not just -1 but <-10), so the software does the work for me of notifying me that any reply that I may choose to make is likely to end in me not enjoying my experience. So I let them be and moved on happily with my life. Their reputation preceeded them - just as my own does irl, just as yours and mine do inside the Threadiverse here, just as Nature and The Universe intends. Or for brand-new accounts there is a different icon alerting me to the fact that they are so "new". This label took no manual effort to make - either by me, a mod, the one it is attached to, an instance admin, nobody, just code.
  And it makes sense, right? Someone who receives 10x more negative feedback than positive feedback is kinda ASKING FOR IT, r-r-right?! Not based on the instance that they choose to make their home, but on their own actions and consequences from those. Someone who wants their content actually read by nice people needs to BE NICER, someone who wants to be treated seriously among serious people needs to BE MORE SERIOUS, and so on - otherwise e.g. upvotes in a meme community are not appropriate to be considered as sufficient "reputation/karma" among, e.g., a scientific community in mander.xyz, or a reporting one, or what about LGBTQIA+ that has its own internal criteria? Appropriate (-ly) matching karma is hepful, while mismatching karma is the opposite, and yes I say this even when it works "against" me, like if I shitpost inside of a scientific community and get downvoted, then... I deserve it!?:-P (no really, truly I do in that case; and in fact in such a case it would even have been helpful to have labelled me as an "untrusted" source, to avoid misleading people, who might otherwise see my large shitposting-derived karma and possibly think otherwise?)
  Anyway, my point here was perhaps to give you some sliver of hope that things can be improved - it will take effort, and that effort is already happening! You don't need to worry about the details right now, I just wanted to offer that sliver of hope that if you came back then it might be better:-). I do not blame you in the slightest for leaving though - as you mentioned, you warned people a year ago, I remember that you truly did! (Here btw is a link to it: https://dubvee.org/post/1516426 in case you need to send it to anyone:-D) Please rest and heal? :-D
  Edit: and btw I did end up finding an old archived copy of dmv.social's last message - ironically on Beehaw, which I guess b/c of the software differences, did not end up deleting it? It basically points to the CSAM attacks, which had just become solved even at that time (dbzero's comment points to it) but the admin was simply so over and done with all that shit that they just wanted out by then, it looks like. Which I understand:-).
  
  This is a 2-year-old account that somehow I have never run across before ... has not one but TWO danger / warning signs placed next to it
  Yeah, user tagging was always a feature I had planned to add to Tesseract but never got around to. They wouldn't have been crowd-sourced or otherwise shared, but it would at least let you flag users to keep an eye on and eventually block or report.
  The problem with that, from an instance admin perspective, is that even though they're flagged with a big "Warning: Highly Radioactive" sign , I'm still platforming them; the toxic waste is still on-site and out in the open. Everything they say and troll is still showing up under a domain registered to me, hosted by hardware, bandwidth, and electricity I pay for and visible to local users. That's neither the look nor environment I want here.
  I'm not saying I have to agree with everything that shows up on DubVee via federation (lord knows I don't), but there are people and rhetoric that I definitely don't platformed here because it runs counter to the mission I'm trying to achieve and/or is flat out illegal and could have black vans show up at my house.
  And that account (I saw it in the replies and immediately banned them) is tame and just obnoxious compared to the extremism that's become commonplace here and has pushed me over the edge and out the door.
  And it makes sense, right? Someone who receives 10x more negative feedback than positive feedback is kinda ASKING FOR IT, r-r-right?!
  Yes and no. Lemmy used to have scores/karma in the API, but the devs yanked that out in 0.19.0. Considering some of the disgusting things that get a lot of upvotes and how anyone who tries to de-escalate or talk sense gets downvoted to hell and called a bootlicker, it's not necessarily a good indicator. Which, to be fair, the Lemmy devs kind-of mentioned when they removed scores from the API, so they were right (though for the wrong reasons).
  I'm not saying the Fediverse is a lost cause (and if I am, then I hope I'm wrong), and I applaud the efforts Rimu and Piefed are doing to improve things. But the whole "censorship resistance" aspect of it is certainly working against it by way of making it effectively impossible to truly ban anyone. Like it or not, there's a reason Reddit (and probably other platforms) does things like fingerprinting browsers/devices to enforce ban evasion. Here, you can troll all you want, call for violence, stir the pot, and then just hop to another account / instance and start again. This is a a feature, not a bug. 😡
  I genuinely feel that instances were so preoccupied with seeing their own or Lemmy's overall MAU counts go up that they didn't stop to look at who they were platforming. Then there's instances that flat out endorse violence so long as the admins agree with the target (cough midwest.social cough).
  I used to post/comment in politics communities, but I've never been here with a political agenda and tend to block or ban those who are; I just want to stay informed with the facts. There's just too many users, mods, and admins here who give extremism and shitty behavior a pass so long as the behavior is in line with whatever flavor of "leftie" the instance subscribes to.
  And therein lies the problem (described better in another comment by ThePicardManeuver). People see this as a "leftie" platform and viciously enforce an echo chamber. Those who don't pass the, quite often insane, purity tests get harassed:
  "Oh, you think X, so you must think Y" (where X = anything not 100% in line with an extreme, absolutist staement and Y = an absoltely insane leap in logic). And then proceeds to attack the user based on the faulty assumption that they said Y when they said X. Then other people pile onto that and futher attack as if the original person had said Y.
  "Patrick modded me because I was advocating violence, and I was, but it was against someone I think is a Nazi. So Patrick must be a Nazi and is over here creating a safe space for other Nazis"
  "I got banned for saying '[Blank] and their family should be lined up and shot'' but I think [blank] is complicit in genociding, so the mods clearly support genocide."
  "That's such an enlightened centrist thing to say" and trying to discredit anyone who disagrees with their extreme take. e.g. If someone says "I agree with you in principle, but maybe take it down a notch" to which they reply "Oh, did I hurt the enlightened centrist's feelings?" For those unfamiliar, the 'enlightened centrist' straw man argument is a false equivalence that posits that if the Right wants X and the Left opposes X, then the enlightened centrist would propose a compromise of 'let's just do a little X'. It is used to discredit anyone who is not fully in line with the person's typically extreme take by falsely suggesting they support the thing.
  And so on and so on. Even if Piefed had bright, flashing warning labels on all those accounts, not everyone would see them due to people interacting from different platforms, different apps/UIs, etc.
  And Lemmy loves to dog-pile, so all those accounts have to do is plant the seed and then sit back and let the average Lemming's overly-inflated sense of self-righteousness take over and amplify the harassment.
  Why this kind of behavior gets a pass around here, I do not understand. But it's common, it's toxic, and needs to be addressed. It's only gotten worse because it's been allowed to fester and desensitize and futher radicalize people. (Again, see TPM's comment in this thread for a clearer version of what I'm saying).
  Take some of this rhetoric from Lemmy, remove the nouns, and it reads exactly like what you'd see on right-wing boards.
  So yeah, I again applaud the efforts of Rimu and Piefed, but this is a people problem (the people doing it as well as the admins/mods who turn a blind eye, etc). Better tools can help, I agree, but they're not going to fix the underlying problem without the people running instances saying "this kind of toxicity and extremism are unacceptable".
  Here btw is a link to it (https://dubvee.org/post/1516426): in case you need to send it to anyone:-D) Please rest and heal? :-D
  Ah, thanks. That was almost exactly a year ago to the day. I remember writing that now, and can safely say in the last year, things have gotten worse. Much worse.
  Edit: Broke this up into sections.
  
  Yup, I just had a discussion with someone I considered rational and got all of those answers thrown at me: "you said X and since sometimes X leads to Y and then sometimes those Ys lead to Z I am going to confidently assume that you said that you support Z even though you explicitly said that this was not the case, and now I won't even consider the possibility that you merely meant that you support X but not Z". I did not desire to leave Reddit only to find Reddit 2.0 here, now twice as authoritarian yet somehow also twice as illegal and piratey, but somehow both at the same time?!
  There truly is a middle ground... most of the time, but it takes blocking every single one of the largest and most active communities on Lemmy. (Which iirc was true of Reddit as well?:-P) People are still people, so like true snowflakes do exist I guess, who somehow are the ones most active in arguing against everyone who does not share fully 100% of their beliefs, even if they share 90% of them. And I can only imagine what you as an instance admin have been exposed to.
  Separately, I think it is a good idea for any instance admin operating inside the USA to shut down. Waves hands, you know what I mean - truth sometimes takes a back seat to expediency and optics, so if Lemmy is where "leftists" congregate (and remember that "leftists" means like "pedos" and "luigi proponents" and the like, or at least someone could try to claim that) then... we should not exist, some may say (and you as the admin carted off without even so much as a warrant needed). So we who know, we who get it, we support you remaining safe.
  Btw the user labels I mentioned are just one way to automate it, but the same identical backend calculations supporting that can also be applied at a moderator level to e.g. automatically block such a reply from such an account to a community that has stricter rules for "nice behavior" than the common meme comms. Lemmy did away with karma, but PieFed did not - so if people want the karma-less 4chan experience, they can have it... but not here, where the mods (or instance admins) have decided that minimum standards must be met in order to participate.
  And yes I mentioned also to TPM that I have started calling those who use the same tactics as the Alt-Right, but ostensibly to apply to the left, as the Alt-Left. They exist in their alternative facts echo chambers, and then sadly come out of those emboldened thinking that they have every right to exist in the real world espousing those beliefs - even when they get kicked out of those spaces (as e.g. Chapotraphouse) and yet still somehow demand that the less extremist places bend to their wills? However, this is just human nature - specifically it is childlike behavior, where unless someone is willing to stop them, they will continue. After all, it works for "insert politicians name here", so why not for them as well? The world as we knew it is gone - we are now "old", and those standards of decency have died, it would seem.

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